Knoppix 3.9 - KDE stops loading after apt-get upgrade

[GATORbyte80]

After running apt-get upgrade on Knoppix 3.9, KDE no longer loads up. I can log in using the graphical interface, but loading halts during System Services loading. Has anyone resolved this problem or experienced it? This is for a HD install situation, of course. Help.

[Harry Kuhman]

After running apt-get upgrade on Knoppix 3.9, KDE no longer loads up. .... This is for a HD install situation, of course. Help.

Of course. Lots of things break after apt-get since Knoppix isn't really suitable for hard disk install. Here's your help, as well as answer #2.

[GATORbyte80]

Thanks, however I am not a completely new user. I have been using Linux for several years, and I've been successfully HD installing Knoppix for two of those years. Your response seems more like a cop-out than any kind of helpful solution. But thanks anyway. I have also installed Debian from the seven-cd set, and have unsuccessfully gotten any kind of window manager to operate correctly - this is why I've opted for Knoppix, and also because of excellent hardware detection and kernel modules like pcmcia. Anyway you're probably also going to tell me that there are other OS's that have live cds that are made specifically for hard drive installs as well, such as Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, etc. These have major problems updating also, I've tried - Ubuntu is the very worst, and they just don't have all of the features I'm looking for. If you can get me up on plain Debian, then maybe that would be the key for me, but I always have difficulty installing it, no matter what I do. My latest experience was with poorly burned ISOs I think. So if I can figure out at which rate I need to correctly burn the ISOs, then maybe I'll get Plain Debian working.

I would appreciate a more constructive solution than simply, it isn't intended for hard drive install (look at answer to question #2). It's still Debian, there's no difference in the file structure, and apt should work correctly. Now if there is some way to tweak my system or if I need to recompile some modules or something to get kdm working correctly again, then that would be a good solution. Thank you for your time. I'll wait patiently until I get some more helpful help.

[nad]

As you are using these forums to find help for your knoppix problems and received a consise answer, why do you take issue with the honest, forthright, informed reply " it isn't intended for hard drive install" ?

Knoppix is _not_ debian. Knoppix is a hand picked selection of applications and libraries that does _not_ fit into any of the debian distribution models. It is neither oldstable, stable, testing nor experimental. It does include software from all of them. Hence, there are dependency issues that have been manually satisfied by the engineers at knoppix.

You are welcome to perform your own re-engineering. The tools are all there and the requirements for each piece of software you wish to install are openly documented, but, as this would no longer be knoppix, you are on your own. We will be happy to assist you with any technical details that we have knowledge of.

Your only specific request was for assistance with kdm for which the only information given by you is "loading halts during System Services loading". A more specific error would be appreciated. Have you consulted your kdm.log file to see if the particular problem(s) is/are noted? Do you know where your log files are kept? Are you aware that there are dozens of log files that cover everything from system starting and daemons to specific software?

You also take issue with apt. What software and library versions were added and/or removed? Did you modify the repository list? Are you aware that it is possible to _pin_ versions so that they are selectively kept and/or upgraded? Do you know how to use man pages?

The file structure conforms to the LSB (Linux Standards Base) as do many distributions. I'd like to just drop a short block chevy into the toyota I drive now. They both have four wheels and a drive train. What gives?

I await a more informed request. A list with specific hardware issues for starters. And as far burn rate, use the slowest speed possible.

[Harry Kuhman]

... I have also installed Debian from the seven-cd set, and have unsuccessfully gotten any kind of window manager to operate correctly -....r. If you can get me up on plain Debian, then maybe that would be the key for me, but I always have difficulty installing it, no matter what I do.....

I have no idea what the 7 disk set is, as the current stable is 14 CDs. You might have an old version of Debian that is harder to install, you might have only some of the CD, or both. Still, it's probably best to install with only CD#1 or even the net install CD. I just installed it a very old Dell P166 and the install went very clean, I use the Net-install but I suggest using the CD#1 approach, the CD takes longer to download but then the install should go faster.

The only technical questions I was asked during my install was what part of the disk to use (I had install XOSL and so opted to use the largest available free space, but it could have used the full hard disk), what country I was in and what keyboard style I wanted, and what resolution my monitor supported (this old system lacks a P&P monitor and video card that supports P&P monitor, so that's not an unreasonable thing to be asked). At one point in the instal you are asked what type of install and if you want a GUI be sure to select "Desktop" in addition to Standard system. It did install Gnome. Which started perfectly. I've been updating and installing happily with the apt system with absolutely no problem, but that's what I would expect with Debian and not with Knoppix. And the only other questions that I can recall during the install were how to set up the email client (I told it not to set one up for now), what root and user names and passwords I wanted, and where I wanted grub put (I wanted it in the Linux partition since I was using xosl rather than in the MBR, which it did).

I know there is an easy way to switch from grub to KDE, I've seen it and done it before back on Stable (I just wanted to get some experience with testing and unstable here), but to be honest that brain cell has died and I don't recall how to make that switch. Perhaps someone else will join in and give you that simple step too.

Debian install has become extremely clean if you use a current version of Debian. If you are complaining because you have some old pre-Sarge version and insist on using it because you downloaded and burnt 7 CD or worse, bought them, that's a personal problem. If you are really having problems getting Debian running on a system with a current version of Debian, take notes and give us specific information about what you are installing on and what your responses to the questions were during the install. I agree with nad above (go nad!) His "I'd like to just drop a short block chevy into the toyota I drive now. They both have four wheels and a drive train. What gives?" seems to suit your problem well.

You say you have been using Linux for several years and I don't doubt that you have a lot more Linux experience than I do, as i've only been dabbling in it and although I've been in these forums a while I'm still a bit of a noob and far from over the Linux "hump", but I can install a current version of Debian with ease using only 1 CD, you should be able to also. If you want to install Knoppix and think you are expert enough to do so, go ahead, but you are reporting and complaining about the second most well known and frequent problem seen with a Knoppix hard disk "install". If you don't know how to resolve it (I don't) and you didn't expect it (I sure did), then installing Knoppix to hard disk is strongly discouraged.

[fingers99]

I think you'll have to do a complete re-install. Of course, back up /home first: if you've been wise, this is on a seperate partition or drive anyway.....

Upgrading in one hit is pretty dangerous in Knoppix, which isn't to say upgrading is impossible. There are no guarantees that things won't break. You may find Kanotix more amenable to upgrades than Knoppix.

First, get apt-spy. Point all your sources at unstable. (Remember that there are dangers in running unstable........ )

apt-get update and then try updating Kde first. No guarantees. At your own risk! Putting your head in the mouth of the Krokodile, etc. etc.

If this works, everything else should be relatively straightforward.

Good luck!

[GATORbyte80]

Thanks for all of the input. I am still set in my ways, that even though Knoppix is not Debian, which I know - it is Debian based, has the same file system structure, uses programs from the Debian repository without problem, compiles the same, is still GNU, and uses Apt. Therefore, it IS Debian. I don't care that Debian won't support it directly, because it is pieces of everything from stable to testing. And besides all of that, I found a true fix for this problem. As I have reinstalled my system several times already, I wasn't about to reinstall again-I'd rather just do without the GUI, BASH worked just fine still. So I went looking for the problem and found out that the answer was simple:

ln -s /etc/init.d/ifupdown-clean /etc/rcS.d/S18ifupdown-clean

That little single liner fixed all of my problems. Apparently it was a misfeature in the 3.9 version of Knoppix, but it was listed on the problems/solutions site for 3.9 knoppix HD install. As far as using Apt goes, I love Apt myself, and wouldn't for one second assume that it was Apt's fault that my system broke. I never thought that or claimed that. I was thinking that I was missing something to begin with, before I ran Apt, and I was right. Actually I tested for my problem once again and found that my problem reared its ugly face after simply setting up my network interface card, which is another problem in 3.9. After doing that I rebooted and KDE wouldn't start up anymore. So I knew right away that it wasn't Apt. Loaded up links and googled my problem with KDE loading the System Services, and found that the above line of code - simply making a soft link to ifupdown-clean in the startup script directory - fixed it! I haven't had any problems since then. Thanks for looking for the answer to my question, but I appreciate your efforts to help me anyway.

As for the 7-disc set of Debian, you're right, it is an older set, actually it's Woody I believe, and I've been told before to get Sarge, but I really don't have time, so I'm "stuck" trying to figure out the answers to my problems on my own. I don't have broadband, so I'm not in a situation where I can use the one-disk setup, then use dpkg to download and install all of my packages. Anyway I thought I'd let you know my current status on this, so that if anyone else has the same problem they might be able to fix it from this post, and so that nobody feels like I don't appreciate the help they have given me. Thanks all.

[dvryknopper]

what is ifupdown-clean exactly?

[Harry Kuhman]

Thanks for all of the input. I am still set in my ways, that even though Knoppix is not Debian, which I know - it is Debian based, has the same file system structure, uses programs from the Debian repository without problem, compiles the same, is still GNU, and uses Apt. Therefore, it IS Debian.

Actually, the bold part above is where just one of the problems is, but it is a serious problem. Knoppix does not use the same Debian repository. The reason is that not all Debian uses the same repository, There are diferent repositories for Stable, Testing and Unstable. Debian isn't doing this to increase their storage needs or to make things harder for someone who already had stable CDs and wants to install the newer testing; they do it because there are changes to both the OS and the packages over time and they must be properly matched. If Debian can't use just one repository without causing serious problems, then why would you think that Knoppix can?

Knoppix isn't made from one version of Debian. It is made from a mix of the different versions. Klaus takes from the stable version when he wants, perhap for stability or for a smaller size program. But he also takes from unstable and testing when he wants newer code or if something in stable isn't working correctly. He carefully tests that everything works together, which, although a long and painful process, he can do because he is dealing with a limited and known set of programs. But it is well known that installing another program with the apt system may bring in newer packages and cause this carefully built house of cards to come crashing down, as will a simple apt-get update. Knoppix isn't Debian, is is based on Debian, but it is different and it is not Debian.

Let me ask one very serious question that I really don't understand the answer to: If you would like Debian, why do you not install Debian? Have you even tried to install Debian testing, which installs extremely cleanly? Sure, when Knoppix first came out the Debian installer (and most if not all other Linux installers) was complex and technical to use. Some people settled for "installing" Knoppix in spite of the problems because they didn't want to do a complex technical Linux install. Lots of people said things like "If Knoppix can do the hardware detection for me, why can't Debian?" Well, the developers listened and learned. Debian testing installs extremenly cleanly. So why do people still insist on pretending that a Knoppix install is almost as good as a real Debian install?