Knoppix should not be a hybrid

**john_h** · 07-03-2003, 10:38 PM

Hello Knoppix Fans,

Klaus may have believed it when he started Knoppix and it
seems there are still people around who believe it, namely
that Knoppix is a Linux distribution for people ignorant of
Linux who want to see it in action with a minimum of effort.
Live from a CD!

It is not. Almost everybody using Knoppix is an experienced
Linux user or a fresh Linux convert, already running away
from Windows for what reasons ever. Knoppix is used as a
rescue system or as a Debian variant with superior hardware
recognition. People who run it from CD are not Windows users
who are intrigued about the new gospel, they may rather be
evangelists themselves.

As for the rescue feature there is not much to be said. It
is a good thing and should go on as single CD distro.

But the major issue is Knoppix as Debian variant for a large
user basis. The user basis is certainly there because Debian
itself is difficult to install and the Debian based distros
with good installers (Libranet, Xandros, Lindows) are
commercial products. Additionally, in Germany the king of
the market, SuSe, has alienated Joe User refusing to allow
for free ISO images. This also goes to say that the Knoppix
user basis can only be among home users since companies
mostly opt for SuSe/Redhat. Even if they opt for Debian,
they do not need Knoppix.

So here is the consequence I want to draw: Knoppix should
become a partial Debian distribution either purely Debian
testing or purely Debian instable. The probable implication
is that it will have to be Debian instable.

At that stage, there would be no problems when trying to
manage your hard disk Knoppix as Debian since it is Debian.
And Knoppix would give a strong push to Linux penetration of
the home user market. And the discussion on what should be
included or not would lose relevance since after the initial
(and customized) hard disk install everything available for
Debian could easily be integrated - which may not be so easy
today. One CD would be enough and the DVD would be
secondary. Klaus would make humanity happy with two CD
releases per year while anybody advising to large updates
online would be sent 6 months to New Dehli with a modem
connection only.

Oh yes, I know that the script for the hard disk install is
quite modest but I trust it is going to change quite soon.

Just my two cents of wisdom.

john

**mabhatter** · 07-19-2003, 03:53 PM

The Morphix guy has several tools Klaus should think about adding that would meet Knoppix needs and Debian needs. The morphix site has an apt-to-cloop transfer program. I think a Knoppix CD with modules would serve more needs. If the software was in bundles than other people could build modules for their favorite stuff wo bothering Klaus every time they want something added. Users could customoize their own disc by using the base Knoppix from Klaus and several others. Want DVD, use bigger cloops, want gnome instead of kde, someone could do that.
That would free up Klaus' time to only have to release a base CD a couple times a year. He could make his base 100% GPL to satisfy the debian crowd while having the non-free stuff in a module for everyone else. It would be the opposite of Gentoo, with portabilty and ease of use over customization. Also, cloop like in Morphix could make a cool package format with drag-n-drop programs. [based on apt to reduce duplicated effort!]
The single CD feature needs to stay. Personally, I love it. On windows boxes at work, I can use linux, and integrate it into my workflow, without inturruption to the use of my PC to other people. I'd dread to HDD install right now [except maybe the copy method] The way Knoppix takes care of itself goes away with the HDD install...the main reason I use it over several other distros I've tried. It will always reset unless you tell it not to. Great for experimenting, getting your hands dirty and breaking things! I suppose with some effort [your idea] the HDD install could be worked on to have all the Knoppix goodness, but on a HDD. The trouble is though, that the "burned CD" approach is what makes support for knoppix [like here] so much easier than for other distros. If everyone installs to HDD and starts compiling programs, much of the "commonality" is lost and it becomes Just-another-distro.

**john_h** · 07-20-2003, 12:07 AM

> If everyone installs to HDD
> and starts compiling programs,
> much of the "commonality" is
> lost and it becomes
> Just-another-distro.

Everyone is already installing
Knoppix to hard disk as you
also would if you were allowed
to. Essentially, you are using
it as a rescue system.

You are proposing that
migration tools should be
included in Knoppix to
overcome sundry problems after
the HD install. I am proposing
migration tools that require
no effort and no space, namely
Knoppix as a strict subset of
Debian instable plus the own
detection routines.

At that moment Klaus Knopper
could concentrate on what he
really shines with: hardware
detection. Somebody would
write a friendly and flexible
user interface for HDD and the
way would be open for Knoppix'
big impact among home users.

The reality is of course that
Knoppix is turning into a new
distinct distribution. And
nobody (nobody!) needs it.
Knoppix' success as Debian
installer is hiding this
elementary fact.

Regards

john

PS: Webmaster, your wrap-around
needs fixing!

**eadz** · 07-20-2003, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by john_h

PS: Webmaster, your wrap-around
needs fixing!

What browser are you using? It wraps like that, becasue a) you must have a tiny window, and b) when it is sent to the server it has linebreaks added by your browser. The forum software converts linebreaks into html breaks. Most browsers have 'soft wrap' where text is wrapped, but when it is posted, it is not converted into linebreaks. Your browser seems to have hard wrap.

**paradocs** · 07-20-2003, 07:12 AM

Hi john_h
Hi All

Is KNOPPIX a Volkswagen or a Mercedes?

Thanks for your perspective on what KNOPPIX has to offer.
Your insight:
"People who run it from CD ... may rather be evangelists themselves."
fits my vision of the long term contribution of this phenomenon.

Distributions will come and go rapidly since open source will always
foster improvements. But the genius of KNOPPIX is to allow a user to
take his operating system from computer to computer, easily share files
between other operating systems, all for pocket change.

I run from CD (actually I am now using the DVD version ) on an
inexpensive computer with no hard drive. At the end of each session
/home/knoppix is burned onto an 8cm CD-RW. With that in the pocket
the desktop and files may be restored to a multitude of computers.

The goal of KNOPPIX surely is not market share, like M$, since
the unit profit is €0,00. But the good it can do in education and cost
effective computing is immense.

Best Wishes
paradocs

**three eyes open** · 07-30-2003, 12:18 AM

I would say that with the new installer script that Knoppix is a distinct distro, even if it still really Debian. And it's still compatible with Debian applications - the best of both worlds.

I'm unclear on one thing - after it's installed to the hard drive, does it use Debian's hardware detection or Knoppix's? Because I prefer Knoppix's. This is one of the reasons I chose Knoppix over regular Debian.

Yes, Debian is difficult to install and Knoppix is easier, but there are step-by-step walkthroughs online for installing Debian that you can print out. But I still chose knoppix.